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The supernatural origins of humanity is deduced from angels, our body/soul/spirit, and Jesus material/supernatural miracles, discussed below.

Since theistic evolutionists accept the existence of a spirit realm, how do they reconcile that belief with chemical and morphological models for the emergence of advanced life forms on earth ? Do angels begin life as fully developed and intelligent beings ? Is fully formed and complex functionality of angels or spirits believed in, and only possible for spirits ? Does angelic intelligence, understanding, and personality come from primordial evolution, survival of the fittest, etc ?

[Reply] "Spirit realm" is a rather uncouth term, which suggests that you are not really up in metaphysics. It belongs more to new age philosophies than to more traditional reflection on the spiritual.
Angels are supposed to be created as they are. There is no real concept of growth for angels.

[Reply 2] Why would one apply natural laws to supernatural beings?

[Reply 3] What do we apply, then? Supernatural laws? What the heck is a supernatural law?

[Reply 4] One that you can make up while you go along, without having any regard for physics, reality, etc.

If you explain angels as having their origins through supernatural laws ("without having any regard for physics, reality, etc.") no longer is "naturalism" the only laws at work in the universe. A precedent is set which can apply for the origins of humanity, body, soul & spirit too.

[Reply] You might make an exception for the soul, but not for the body, because it is not spiritual, and the spirit (mind) I would classify as not spiritual either, others may differ.

Once supernatural beings are assumed to exist and supernatural laws (whatever they are) are applied to them, we have a precedent which can apply to humans too. This is the creationist position, that origins were supernatural not natural; which cannot be denied by theistic evolutionists.

Additionally, the Genesis account speaks of supernatural creation.
Genesis 1:27, Genesis 2:21-24 (MKJV)

1:27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

2:21 And Jehovah God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept. And He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh underneath.
2:22 And Jehovah God made the rib (which He had taken from the man) into a woman. And He brought her to the man.
2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called Woman because she was taken out of man.
2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh.

Excerpt Quote:
"Now obviously these passages contain the message that a) God supernaturally created man in His own image and likeness, b) He created man male and female, by c) forming the woman out of the man's body, which in Genesis is the basis for the unity between man and woman Jesus alludes to in His teaching on marriage and divorce before the Pharisees.

If this account can't be taken literally, at least to the extent that there was an actual first man and woman, that they were created supernaturally, that man came first, and woman second in chronological order, and that woman was formed from man, then Jesus' teaching is false in being based on what has no basis in reality. "

[Reply] No, because creationists don't limit this to the soul or possibly also the spirit.

If you explain angels as having their origins through supernatural laws ("without having any regard for physics, reality, etc.") no longer is "naturalism" the only laws at work in the universe. A precedent is set which can apply for the origins of humanity, body, soul & spirit too.

Spiritual people, and those who assume the existence of Angels, cannot have it both ways with a false dichotomy that argues for a purely naturalistic - materialistic origins of humanity - theistic evolution - while accepting we have a spirit, mind, intelligence - which originated like that of angels. No longer is "naturalism" the only laws at work in the universe, to explain body, soul, and spirit requires supernatural origins for humanity.

Those who believe in Angels and Christ usually accept the miracles of Christ, which were both supernatural and material. Raising the dead, restoring eye-sight, healing diseases, calming the storm, ascending to heaven against gravity, etc. Naturalism cannot explain these, anymore than it can explain the supernatural origins of Angels, and our own soul/spirit. There's no place for morphological emergence in the origins of Angels, or our soul/spirit.

[Reply] This leaves aside that you are very simplistically taking this occasion as something as an eyewitness account of material things that happened. Cue: they were not supposed to be material things, precisely *because* angels were involved.

But perhaps this is beside the point. Let's by all means accept angels and miracles as material realities.

So though origins of soul and spirit, like that of angels, being supernatural, like the cited miracles which were both supernatural and material, clearly indicate a supernatural origins for humanity you apparently hold onto morphological emergence for humanity - theistic evolution.

[Reply] Well, it is possible to just state the supernatural creation of humanity, of course. But why do so when an enormous amount of evidence points to a natural evolution? The scientific answer, in all its detailed complexity, is indeed the simpler one, if only because there is no corroborating evidence for a supernatural origin.
But still, anyone is free to hold to an idea even if that idea has no scientific relevance. But if you want to use it to criticize a scientific theory like evolution, not only do you need to show the strong corroborative evidence your idea seems to be lacking, but also why the evidence for evolution fails.
If you do the first and leave out the second, we just end up with two competing theories; if you do the second but not the first, we end up with no theory at all. If you do neither, we'll let science just continue with what it is doing. OK?

After offering the above arguments for the supernatural origins of humanity - rather than naturalism's morphological emergence through macro evolution, I'm inclined to leave this debate here. For those that believe in Angels, the supernatural origins of humanity (soul/spirit - like angels), and the supernatural-material miracles of Jesus, these probably are enough for faith in the word of God. Both the natural and supernatural are no different to Jesus who effortlessly operates/d in both, cf raising the dead, calming the storm, healing diseases, ascending to heaven against gravity, etc.

No one can prove that God, angels, soul and spirit don't exist, they would have to be omniscient, so at most one can be agnostic. As always the devil is in the details and faith in the Word of God is required. We can hope for being beyond-reasonable-doubt, but probably must beware of unwittingly building yet another tower-of-Babel to human wisdom and organizational accomplishments - with all it's sampling errors and successive approximation. When Christ/Messiah comes to reign He will straighten out our understandings/wisdom/etc, perhaps we can't preempt that.

Evolutionary science is merely naturalistic or materialistic. It also implicitly requires that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which remains to be proven. Something can exist whether we're omniscient or more correctly not; no one has universal knowledge, sampling error and successive approximation dogs everything we do. The majority of people believe in angels, so some are struggling with an uphill battle to overturn popular culture.

As you know, the Bible states:

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

It sounds like you're unwittingly drawing back to the successive-approximation of human accomplishments and wisdom, despite a case for the supernatural origins of humanity, like angels.

Rom 1:20 For the _invisible_ things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

While the Bible does say seek and you will find (Mat 7:7), and the search for knowledge and wisdom can be commendable, it is a double edged sword, easily becoming a tower-of-Babel to the wisdom and achievements of humanity in direct contradiction to the inspired Word of God. As is commonly said, a little knowledge (or even a good amount) can be a dangerous thing. We cannot build our towering wisdom to God - we will never be omniscient and must be led by the Spirit of God - so can at most be agnostic, sampling error and successive-approximation dogs everything we do - which is one reason science commends itself on extolling theories and hypothesis that invariably can change. (1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of _science_falsely_so_called_)

We're called to a repentant relationship with God through Jesus Christ, not a religion as such - there is only one Alpha-and-Omega (Rev 1:8). I believe life is a simultaneous equation - there are three possible outcomes, no-solutions / infinite-partial-solutions / one-solution. We know there are partial solutions, (possibly infinite 'partial' solutions), I maintain that the one full solution is the Alpha-and-Omega (Rev 1:8) of God's son Jesus Christ, as described and defined in the Bible. Psa 40:7 Then I said, Lo, I come, in the volume of the Book it is written of Me. (With all our sampling errors and successive approximation we will never be omniscient - so can at most be agnostic)

Perhaps what you're unwittingly doing is desiring something which would quickly degenerate into yet another religion - not a Spirit led relationship ? Christianity, like the life of Christ, was meant to be ground-up, not a religio-political system down. Those who espouse hierarchical Christianity have forgotten that these things are all going to pass away (Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come), and that religio-political hierarchical Christianity may? be found to be unwitting party to the pseudo-Christ system of yet another religion with all it's sampling-errors and compromising shortfalls. A little like the Pharisees, and their organization, of Jesus day.

Another problem, which you also touched on, is that to take matters much further than the above case for the supernatural origins of humanity could easily degenerate into new-age philosophy as a replacement for the rigors of science - despite successive approximation and sampling errors. While i guess there has been a case made for Christ as the one and only full solution to life's simultaneous equation (Rev 1:8), and the subject of the Christ Code, it's not easy to further differentiate Christian spirituality from all other contenders, and I think matters could easily degenerate if allowed to get out of hand.

As you know, the Bible states that the true things of this world are eternal/spiritual (2Co 4:18). By all means fulfill the great commission as well as you know how, but perhaps beware of building with the successive approximation and sampling errors of human wisdom. 1Ti 6:20 _science_falsely_so_called_, which mostly applies to the extrapolations of those who weren't there to see how it happened - the origins of humanity, so don't have rigorous observations to base their theories on. Which is one reason science commends itself on extolling theories and hypotheses that invariably can change.


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